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Disclosing Salary History To Recruiters

Hi, all.  I know your first post isn't supposed to be a request for advice but I imagine that this discussion will be useful to many others in my situation.

I'm a 26-year old software engineer and after being laid off from a large internet company I find myself on the job market for the first time (I was initially recruited out of college).  I have read countless articles online cautioning against disclosing salary history up front to recruiters and hiring managers (such as http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/faqsalary1.htm and http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/hasalary.htm as well as http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=37681).  Monster also circulated a newsletter just last week to the same effect.

My resume has received a fairly large response since being posted on Monster and Dice, but so far I have only been able to get past one recruiter without disclosing my salary history (salary requirements are not good enough).  The others, be they third-party or in-house, insist that no one at the company will speak with me without the information and that's that.  When I ask why that information would be required, they say it's "just how it is".

While I'm not a guru by any means, I have a very strong background and perform well above average, especially given my relatively short employment time.  I have an excellent track record at my last company and a resume that most agree is impressive.  The point of this isn't to brag but to indicate that I can't imagine any hiring manager would see my resume and not want to at least give me a phone screen without my salary history.  Yet, the recruiters aren't giving them the chance.

Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed?  I've done a good amount of research to determine my worth and am worried that recruiters who don't know any better will assume I'm valuing myself too highly and not give me a chance to demonstrate.

(As an aside, I understand that there are more developers who feel underpaid than underpaid developers.  There were a specific set of circumstances which led to me earning a good deal less than I should have been, and while I am happy to share this with new employers, I'd rather save that until we're actually negotiating salary).

Thanks in advance for your responses.
Dan Benjamin Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
One other thing that I forgot to mention but might be of interest to those reading:  a recruiter I spoke to today, from a well-known technology company, told me that prospective candidates who would not disclose salary history would be labeled "uncooperative" which would of course reflect negatively on their application.  I found the idea that they could demand personal information and use non-disclosure against you patently offensive and wasn't sure how to respond.  This surprised me as this company seems to have an excellent record of employee satisfaction.
Dan Benjamin Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
they dont want to waste their time if you want too much money. salary history usually means what you want to make. they rarely check. you can usually get away with exaggerating it.

if your history is too low, inflate it.
Contractor
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
I don't think lying is an option, they've said they expect pay stubs and I don't want to take any chances.

I've been very clear with all of them about the range that I'm expecting but they're equally as clear that range and history are not the same.
Dan Benjamin Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
From http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/02/19/the-answer-to-the-toughest-interview-question

What salary range are you looking for?
“Let’s talk about the job requirements and expectations first, so I can get a sense of what you need.” That’s a soft answer to a soft way to ask the question.

What did you make at your last job?
“This position is not exactly the same as my last job. So let’s discuss what my responsibilities would be here and then determine a fair salary for this job.” It’s hard to argue with words like “fair” and “responsibilities”—you’re earning respect with this one.

What are you expecting to make in terms of salary?
“I am interested in finding a job that is a good fit for me. I’m sure whatever salary you’re paying is consistent with the rest of the market.” In other words, I respect myself and I want to think I can respect this company.

I need to know what salary you want in order to make you an offer. Can you tell me a range?
“I’d appreciate it if you could make me an offer based on whatever you have budgeted for this position and we can go from there.” This is a pretty direct response, so using words like “appreciate” focuses on drawing out the interviewer’s better qualities instead of her tougher side.

Why don’t you want to give your salary requirements?
“I think you have a good idea of what this position is worth to your company, and that’s important information for me to know.” Enough dancing–this is one last attempt to force you to give the number first. Hold your line here and you win.
Prisoner of corporate America
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
Also - anyone who insisted I provide a pay stub is not someone I would do business with.  End of story.
Prisoner of corporate America
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
Disclose nothing beyond absolute basics to the recruiter and don't believe a single word they tell you. The recruiter does not work for you and they are not looking out for your best interest. Giving them more info than they need will only hurt you.

If the client wants to know your salary history they can request it directly from you - ideally if/when you begin actually negotiating salary. It's pointless to divulge that kind of info before they've even spoken to you and evaluated you on your merits.
The Original Henry
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
Keep in mind that in some industries and fields, recruiters are paid a portion of your salary. In addition to the comments above, these people may simply be trying to cherry pick ideal candidates to put forward.

If it's possible to apply directly to the company and skip the recruiter entirely, do so. I've even seen a few job "ads" from recruiters that were sufficiently detailed enough that in this relatively small town, I could narrow down the prospective employer to just a few possibilities.

There are a few cases where a sizeable company will not accept resumes not forwarded by a designated recruiter, those companies are essentially outsourcing the first contact. You will have to decide on a case by case basis but they'll usually tell you up front who they are and they'll typically ask for a salary history after they've interviewed you.

I think anyone who asks for your history first, is just fishing and your history is none of their business.
TheDavid
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
Thanks for all the responses.  I think some of these missed the mark a little bit so I'll try to clarify my dilemma.

Prisoner:  the list you provided seems like it would be very effective when dealing with a hiring manager or someone else who could make me an offer, but these are just recruiters.  They say that without that information they "can't" submit me for consideration.

Original Henry:  same thing, I'm never even given a chance to speak with the client.

TheDavid:  Your advice to apply directly to the company seems like a very good idea, especially in light of the fact that these recruiters are telling me the positions they're recruiting for and then not submitting me.  However, in the case I described above (well-known tech company) I was already talking to an in-house recruiter who was very firm in saying that he couldn't pass me on to the person who would schedule my phone interview (I had already taken an online test for them and did quite well) until I gave him my salary info.  I'm still quite interested in the company itself (so long as they do in fact treat their employees well, in spite of this experience) and I would love to talk to a hiring manager directly but I have no idea how to go about this.  Any ideas?

This is a very difficult position to be in - I'd love to be able to say that I'm not interested in working for a company that forces the issue but so far it seems to be all of them.

Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
I wouldn't do business with someone who was that anal about my salary history.

In a pinch, if you don't want to lie but feel your last job's salary then use the word compensation.  Add up your vacation time, the employer's share of health benefits/401k matching, etc.  You can chalk on an extra 15 to 20% over just a salary number by tallying the benefits.  I think you should anyways, my current company sends me to tech-ed every year, that runs about $3000, you better believe I consider that compensation.
Eric Wise Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
1. Recruiters are not your friends.  But they may be able to open doors.

2. Companies are paying these recruiters to screen candidates that don't fit.  These could be those with too much or too little salary or experience.

3. At the latest, you will have to disclose your currently salary when you show up for a job interview. This is usually done via job application, possibly in advance.

4. In most cases, you will not make more than 15% than you did in your last job.  If you screwed up and worked for too little for a while, you will need to make a couple hops to get where you feel you should be.
Intellectually Stimulating Vocation Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
I don't understand the problem with disclosing your previous salary. Ask for what you have determined you're worth in your market, and tailor your resume and interview to demonstrate why you are worth what you are about to ask for. If they don't want to pay the fair market value for your services, tell them no thanks. If they really want you, they'll pay.
Bill
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
I've had the same problem.  I think it's an unfair practice. You should be worth what the market says you're worth, not your last employer.

I just lie and say that I made what I expect to make now.  It works.  They have no way to verify what you used to make.
Anon
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
This has become a common practice today along with deep background checks and credit checks.

Due to a lack of unionizing software engineers and IT workers a like will continue to get walked all over.  It happened with offshoring and H1-b's and it continues.

I'm sick of how software engineers are getting treated these days!

Go to www.washtech.org and learn about unionizing!
CC Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
Don't lie about your salary.  Many employers will release your start date, end date, and salary.  It is NOT against the law and they are not lying about you so you can't sue them over it.

I once gave my true salary history, but also included data from salary.com.  Amazingly I got $15,000/yr. more than my previous (under paid) position.

It's funny.  Some places measure your value according to how much you previously made, while others will ding you if you made "too much".

And some places will ding you if your salary went up, up, up, and then came down.  They think it is a sign that something negative went wrong with you.

It's a real crap shoot.
Joe Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
"Also - anyone who insisted I provide a pay stub is not someone I would do business with.  End of story."

Obviously you haven't been looking for a job lately.  Welcome to the new corporate America.  I had to submit proof of salary, had a criminal background check, and had a credit check.

It used to be only accountants had to get a credit check, now everyone gets one.

And I've heard of other companies now requiring psychological evaluations also!  Some even make you take an IQ test!

Don't laugh this is where things are going!
Gracco Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
Any company or recruiter that makes you jump through these many hoops had better be a big shot, otherwise I'd dump them in the blink of an eye.

You don't need them. There are plenty of recruiters out there and plenty of high-tech jobs. Tell them you consider this information private and no other recruiters asked for it. Tell them your professional history should speak for itself.

I've never been asked for pay stubs and I expect I never will. It's totally irrelevant and none of them business. The market determines your value *right now* not what you got paid by your last employer. End of story.
Gili Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
"I don't understand the problem with disclosing your previous salary."

Because it puts you into a poor negotiating position. When negotiating you never want to be the one to set the line, especially when you're up against a force that's stronger and more organized than you are.


"Go to www.washtech.org and learn about unionizing!"

Yeah we're being treated like crap lately, but unionizing is certainly not the answer. I could go on for paragraphs about the negative consequences of this, but it's not really appropriate for this thread.
The Original Henry
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
Gili - any advice on how to locate those recruiters/companies that will interview me without salary history?  I've been contacted by 30-35 recruiters so far (counting both in-house and 3rd-party) and of the ones I've bothered responding to, every single one has asked.  That will likely also hurt my chances of them believing me if I say no one else asked, though I suppose I could say no one else refused to work with me.

So far out of all of them, exactly one has put me through to the company he was recruiting for.  They loved my resume, I breezed through a phone screen, and I'll be interviewing with them next week.  Still, that's only one, and I wonder how many other (engineering) managers would tell their recruiters to please stop hassling me and let them talk to me if they knew what was going on.
Dan Benjamin Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
"no one at the company will speak with me without the information and that's that"

That's OK - those are not real job adverts, they are just trolling for market info. It would be a waste of your time to go on interviews at places that require salary history, which is both none of their business, and which is prohibited to disclose in any case by many contracts. I'm not allowed to disclose the salary I make right now - it's in my contract. A pretty standard clause too.
Tony Chang
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
You have to hold your ground, IMO.  They will try to get you to bend first, they will try to get you to say a number first, and they're used to the uncomfortable silence.  The recruiter needs you more than you need him - you have a skill, they are simply middlemen for your skill.  Companies want and need your skills.  You don't hear about a global shortage of tech recruiters. 

This is one of the pluses of being your own boss - you get to negotiate with people all the time.  You get used to people trying to get you to do something for way less than it is worth.  You simply need practice negotiating and to get over your "I must bend to their rules" mentality. 

I find it hard to believe that software companies (as opposed to companies that have a software department) would continue with this practice.  What kind of job are you trying to get?
Joshua Volz Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
"you never want to be the one to set the line, especially when you're up against a force that's stronger and more organized than you are."

YOU make money for THEM... you're actually the stronger force. Whether they pay you $80K, or $90K, or $100K, they can make $200K off you per year. They're not going to let you walk.
Bill
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
As a recruiter, I ask your last salary so I know if we're playing in the same ballpark.  If I'm hiring for a 60K job and you are in the 100K ballpark, I'll happily not waste either of our time. 

Seemingly billions of online job seekers spam out resumes with no idea what the job really is, what it does, for what level, or even which technologies/education /certifications are required.- just because you applied may not mean you are interested in the job I'm offering.  I have even encountered a lot of applicants who were not certain of the STATE the job they applied for was in.  Just because you happen to be a savvy applicant, you would be misled to believe even half of applicants have a snowflake's chance in hell of getting the job.  (I've never gone to college or worked in the field but I drove a truck for 20 years so I know all I need to about logistics... and this might be one of your more interesting applicants- at least they knew what they applied for.)

Re: your salary, the market bears what it will and you will accept the offer we eventually make/negotiate to or not.  There is a lot more to the value proposition of a job than the dollars and you'll value the full offer or not.  Coy games are annoying when you make these calls often- we have all been applicants, too, and we know what you're trying to do and when you're being slick... it does not present you well and, really, I'm just trying to figure out if I want to talk to you more or not.

Trying to dodge this question makes you seem shady- and many companies check deep details, some don't.  It depends on the job but as more companies are being humiliated by liars, it's going to become more prevalent. As a non-liar, screening out the dishonest jerks is more than fine by me.
recruiter chick
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
Personally every job I have ever had was through a personal referral.  My first job was through a professor, then after that, when I wanted a new job, I simply asked people who had left our company and went to other jobs.  They are a great source of information about the potential company.  Always keep in contact with those people you like and trust. Expand your network because you don't know when you will need to reach out to them. 

And in the reverse situation, when I was in the hiring process, I would always check with everyone at work to see if they knew anyone they could bring in.  Having a current employee vouch for them was a huge plus.  It reduces some of the risk when hiring.

You said you haven't been working to long, but check with everyone in your network to see if they have any job openings.  This is the best way to get an interview. Then you can worry about salary.
Chris Send private email
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
"Seemingly billions of online job seekers spam out resumes with no idea what the job really is, what it does, for what level, or even which technologies/education /certifications are required.- just because you applied may not mean you are interested in the job I'm offering."

That's a good point, those billions of fake applicants. Obviously, requiring a salary history solves the problem and allows you to separate the serious applicants from the fakes. Thanks for pointing this out!
Tony Chang
Monday, March 03, 2008
 
 
"I ask your last salary so I know if we're playing in the same ballpark.  If I'm hiring for a 60K job and you are in the 100K ballpark, I'll happily not waste either of our time."

The best way to solve this problem is to advertise what you are offering for the position. Then, I don't waste my time applying for jobs that aren't in the same ballpark.
Tony Chang
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
Oh, and why does providing a salary history help determine if the candidate is looking at the range you are offering when compaired to the candidate telling you what they are after?  Its the latter number that matters - the history only helps in negotiation.

To the OP:  Tell them that your pay is company confidential information that you are not authorized to disclose.  Tell them that there is no way they could trust you with their confidential information if you cannot respect previous employers.

Be sure after they ask you about the salary history to ask them what budget range they have approved for this position.  Fair play and all.

Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
As much as I welcome input from someone on the other side of the process, this post seemed to be more of a venting of frustrations than anything (ie, language like "dishonest jerks") and did not address the points in the original post.

"just because you applied may not mean you are interested in the job I'm offering."

If I wasn't clear about it, I never applied anywhere.  All of these recruiters contacted me to tell me about jobs they want to fill.  There can be no confusion - I either tell them I'm interested or I don't.

"Coy games are annoying when you make these calls often- we have all been applicants, too, and we know what you're trying to do and when you're being slick... "

This makes no sense to me.  I tell them that I feel salary history is a private matter and am happy to discuss salary information with the hiring manager at the time of negotiations.  They tell me that I should just trust that the company will pay me what I'm worth regardless of what I was making before.  Who do you think is playing games?

"it does not present you well and, really, I'm just trying to figure out if I want to talk to you more or not."

Again, you called me.  You do want to talk to me more; otherwise you wouldn't have called.

"As a recruiter, I ask your last salary so I know if we're playing in the same ballpark.  If I'm hiring for a 60K job and you are in the 100K ballpark, I'll happily not waste either of our time."

I wanted to address this last: what has become most apparent to me throughout this process is that the majority of recruiters can't tell the 60k programmers from the 100k programmers in the first place.  To me this seems like it should be a required part of the position.  How can you expect to place candidates effectively if after looking at their resumes and discussing their backgrounds you still can't get any kind of idea of what kinds of jobs they're qualified for?
Dan Benjamin Send private email
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
>>
There is a lot more to the value proposition of a job than the dollars and you'll value the full offer or not.
>>

There is a lot more to value proposition of an engineer than the dollars, and the employer will value the full offer or not.
Patrick McKenzie (Bingo Card Creator) Send private email
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
Dan,

There are two ways you can look for a job: when you have to because, as in your case you have lost your previous job, and when you want to, when you have a reasonable job, but are looking for something better. You're always going to be in a much stronger position in the second case.

It looks like currently the "standard" is to ask for a person's salary history. Choose your battles. Give it to them. Find the best job, one that you'll be happy to do. Often it'll also pay well.

Wait 6-12 months and see how you like your job. At that point, look around and see what people in your position make. If you feel that you're underpaid in your current company, interview around, and then go back to your boss and tell them that you have a better offer and ask them if they can match it.

Ignore all the macho guys who say "I would never work for a company that asks for salary history." If a real recession hits, and they're on the street, they'll find out that they sing a totally different song.
Dror Send private email
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
I just applied for jobs at a number of well-known Silicon Valley firms (and received offers from a couple).  I was asked about my salary history on many applications, but I wrote "confidential" every time.  The in-house recruiters never inquired further.  If you're being pestered and badgered about giving this information, I'm guessing you're not dealing with the right people.

Large tech companies have significant in-house recruiting resources.  I don't think they many hire full-time engineers through third-party recruiters.  If you want a job at a company like that, it makes a lot more sense to go directly to the hiring companies than to recruiting agencies.  All the other standard advice also applies -- for example, your professional network should be a lot more useful than cold replies to online job listings.
Ryan Send private email
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
What would the high court say?

IQ tests are pretty much illegal, since the courts think that IQ tests discriminate against African-Americans (which is stupid imho, but I hear it's the law, though IANAL).

I wonder if previous salary would also be discriminatory - since everyone who is not white and male is likely to have a low-ball previous salary.
PeterR
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
The simple way to solve this, Dan, is to say to those recruiters calling you - as soon as they identify themselves , "ok, here are the groundrules.  I've had calls from dozens of recruiters and they all tell me my resume looks excellent.  So, tell me the salary so I can let you know if I'm even interested in talking with you."

Put them on the spot.  Don't let them do that to you.

Go work your network, and start looking directly at companies.  Then go find someone in the company you want to work for who will become your champion. Then you'll get your new job.

You don't have to deal with recruiters if you have a great resume.
I'll be anonymous this time Send private email
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
If you're employed and don't want to go through the whole process before being discarded because you want more money than they can pay, tell them what you expect.
Anon Anon
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
>As a recruiter, I ask your last salary so I know if we're playing in the same ballpark.  If I'm hiring for a 60K job and you are in the 100K ballpark, I'll happily not waste either of our time. 

Then tell us up front what the ballpark is. Don't make us play silly games. Because those silly games are a waste of both of our times.
Peter Send private email
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
"Keep in mind that in some industries and fields, recruiters are paid a portion of your salary."

NO NO NO NO NO!

Do NOT keep that in mind, or you'll screw yourself.

Recruiters do not make more money by negotiating each deal for an extra 5% salary, so they can get that extra piece of commission. They make money by closing three deals this week instead of two.

Do you think they close more deals by negotiating on your behalf, or by lowballing you?
Drew Kime Send private email
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
+1 Drew Kime.

As I said before, recruiters do NOT work for you, and do NOT have your best interests in mind. They will literally make stuff up just to close a deal. Some even go so far as to modify your resume without telling you and then submit it to clients.
The Original Henry
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
"As a recruiter, I ask your last salary so I know if we're playing in the same ballpark.  If I'm hiring for a 60K job and you are in the 100K ballpark, I'll happily not waste either of our time."

I don't see how this helps. I might have been making a below-market salary and would only consider a substantial increase, or I might have been making an above-market salary but would consider a substantially lower salary for the right position. In both cases my salary history misrepresents the ballpark of what I will accept.

Salary history is essentially irrelevant; you need to ask what salary range the candidate is looking for (and be forthcoming in return about the salary range for the position).
Jesse Smith Send private email
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
i have never had a recruiter ask for salary history. I also have them ask for how much I want to make.

btw, my first respons to a recruiter who contacts me ( I got 3-7/day) is

what is the rate or salary?

I will not even give them my real name before I get that back.
Contractor
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
"Do NOT keep that in mind, or you'll screw yourself."

I think I mispoke.

What I meant to say is that they make their money by placing candidates. They're not trying to find the best job for you, they're trying to find you a job, any job.

The recruiters I've spoken to, will attempt to maximize their profit either by placing more people, or getting more money per person placed. The best circumstance is when they place more people and get more money per person at the same time. It is for that reason some recruiters don't touch candidates and jobs paying less than... oh, $30,000 to throw a number out there. If they've got 50 people in the $60,000 range to place, it's simply not worth their time and effort to place someone only worth $30,000.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were recruiters that refused to look at you if you were making less than $100,000, assuming of course they have plenty of other candidates they can submit and make a living from.

I think what Drew was concerned about was that I was advocating that YOU in some fashion pay the recruiter and consequently YOU want to encourage the recruiter to get you the highest salary possible.

Far from it. I'm saying they have a finite number of hours they work and like everyone else, they're trying to maximize the amount of money they get each week, not per placement.
TheDavid
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
"I'm still quite interested in the company itself... and I would love to talk to a hiring manager directly but I have no idea how to go about this."

Speaking from experience, if you have the manager's name, job title and mailing address, simply send them a very polite and formal letter asking for some assistance. Briefly mention that you've run into a snag and you would like some advice. Do not accuse the recruiter of shennigans or incompetance, just simply say that the recruiter didn't explain the process very well or he  couldn't provide you with some info you wanted. Your real goal at this point is to imply to the manager that he should ask the recruiter to fast track your paperwork.

If you don't have the manager's contact information, you'll have to resort to the "Old Boy's Network" to get it. Ask someone you know that works there. Go to a trade show or conference and ask the sales rep. Make a plea on their customer forums. And so on.

Good luck.
TheDavid
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
Feel free to keep the discussion going but I think this was very good and I know how I'll proceed now.

Dror, your advice was excellent and I plan to follow it.  I also received some advice from a former manager encouraging me to disclose my salary at least to in-house recruiters; given that I can demonstrate why I'm worth the range I'm looking for, I can effectively screen out anyone who's looking to base their offer on my former compensation.

And to those of you who suggested getting the salary range for the position up front, this is also working well and I don't feel like the exchange of information is so one-sided.

Thanks, everyone!
Dan Benjamin Send private email
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
As a Software Developer, who almost got into a HR/Psychology career, I can tell you that in many places telling your former/current salary IS THE NORM, not the exception.

HR people are paid to get employees with the most capacity possible, and the less possible payment. That's the main reason they ask for your previous income.

If there are many people seeking for the same job, that means the company can pay less. If there are less people, they will have to increase the quantity they pay, but they still want to know how much people are paid, so the companies know how much to pay, just a little more, but no more.

But, they also are specialized psychologists. They'll ask you for as much information, about you, they can, in order to know about you, and denying (trivial) things like your salary, make them really mad.

I sometimes put myself in the HR people "shoes", they need to know as much as possible about you. Because its not an easy job to find people with experience, who likes teamwork (not very usual in IT), who doesn't steal companies things (very common) or know if you are prone to delete the company's corporate database if you get fired...

But, I know they ask too much, sometimes. When I just finished college, and got my first job, I was called for a job interview. I wasn't very interested, but they keep calling me, again, and again, until I went.

I sent my resume (with my age). And when I got there, the lady said to me that I was too young. She started asking all sort of job/personal questions, and sometimes ask me about my current boss job functions, salary, until I get mad and very politely ask her If she was interested on me or my boss, because I wasn't going to tell anything about him, just me. She called the security guy, and I had to leave the building...

It also common in HR, to interview people, even if they don't had an open job position, because when they really have one, they may have to work extra hours, or even hire extra people to help to interview. So get used to go to companies, even if they don't really need people right now.

So, you'll have to tell some of your info you may find unnecessarily, as they told you: that's the way it is.

Good Luck.
Marco Aurelio Ramirez Carrillo Send private email
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
Don't judge a company by it's HR betty or recruiter-  I am the recruiter who wrote above and am frankly shocked by how many nimrods are in HR because they could not hack accounting.  Headhunters are the worst- and how they do not clean up some of the horrid resumes is beyond me.  No marketing savvy even.

Why don't we know the difference between a 60K and a 100K programmer?  Because only a programmer could tell the difference and if the person was all hat, no cattle or the real deal.  Most programmers would prefer to, say, program, than wade through 20 resumes and phone screens just to get to talk to two people who might be a good fit for whatever reason. 

If you're a direct person, be direct.  I'll tell you a range but only if you ask.  Frankly, if you can't be and require direct communication, you'd be unhappy at my company anyway.

I do promise you that being bitter, bitchy, arrogant, or an asshole will not win you cool points with me.  Remember, your boss (who would also be happily programming if he didn't have to deal with you) will send your socially inept ass to my office to deal with when you spin out and anyone with social skills knows the game- be nice, play nice, be confidant, be honest. 

...but what do I know?  I just sit on the other end of these calls and keep the gate...
recruiter chick
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
"If there are many people seeking for the same job, that means the company can pay less."

This is not true. You are assuming commodity pricing. Commodity pricing is only the case when items are commodities, that is they are completely identical in every way.

If you want to hire programmers as commodities, be my guest. Skip the technical interview completely, it is a waste of time since all are the same. Just get their salary requirements and then hire the person with the lowest one.
Tony Chang
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
"I do promise you that being bitter, bitchy, arrogant, or an asshole will not win you cool points with me."

Talk about projection!
Tony Chang
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
"I just sit on the other end of these calls and keep the gate."

And there you go. Your company has to have a on staff recruiter because your company does not naturally attract talent to apply there.
Tony Chang
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
"I do promise you that being bitter, bitchy, arrogant, or an asshole will not win you cool points with me."

I think you misunderstood. When we choose to cooperate with you we're not interested in obtaining "cool points".
The Original Henry
Tuesday, March 04, 2008
 
 
I'm a little late to the game here, but the comments to date have been great.

recruiter chick makes a great point when talking about recruiters being unable to differentiate 60k people from 100k people. In fact that's the fundamental problem with recruiters in this field: if recruiters knew enough to actually filter out candidates then they would be in the field making more money.

It's a big catch-22 and recruiters are really on the short end of the stick here.

Personally, I wouldn't provide salary history, b/c it's clearly irrelevant data. In your case you have less than 5 years in the field, that data is even less relevant.  I've more than doubled my salary since 2002, but I don't expect to double my salary again by 2014. Years 5 to 10 are very different than years 0-5, that's just the way it is.

Of course, that's neither here nor there.  Personally, I'm wondering why you're even using recruiters? If you really need the next paycheck, then you'll have to take what comes. But if you have an emergency fund and you can wait out a few months, then why try a different tack?

Why not find every company in (& out) of your area that does the stuff you are interested in doing?

Spend a day on Google and search. In Canada, my local job office would maintain a list of relevant larger employers based on job class. Ask you friends if they "know someone" and basically do a whole bunch of research.  Find a list of 10 companies you'd really like to work for AND THEN apply directly to those companies, even if they're not hiring. Get names if you can, visit their offices, make sure they all have custom cover letters and even resumes. Do whatever you can think of to interview with these companies.

This is an instance of "start with the end in mind". Pick a path and then find employers in line with that path. Right now, you have a bunch of recruiters calling you, but they don't know where you want to go, only you do. So be proactive and pick your next job.

Don't know where you want to go? Well now is the time to sit down with yourself and figure it out. Why wake up in 5 years and realize that you spent time going somewhere you never wanted to be?
Gates VP Send private email
Sunday, March 16, 2008
 
 

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